What color were I-15bis wing and fuselage undersides – silver or blue?
Is there any evidence that I-15bis undersides were factory painted in blue? Is there any information about paints in "Technical Description"? Are there any artifacts (wrecks or museum pieces preserved in original colours) that would confirm use of blue before 1940?
When was the beginning of use of AII Golubii - in 1940 or earlier?
I would appreciate if moderators translate questions above to Russian. Thanks…
Vahlamov and Orlov (1996 M-Hobby) say that undersides of prewar mixed construction fighters were silver.
Vahlamov and Orlov (1999 M-Hobby) have published a table which shows that the beginning of use of AII Golubyii was in 1940, too late for I-15bis:
Maslov in his I-15bis book (2003 Rusavia monograph) says that undersides were silver. At the end of production in 1939, entire planes were painted silver:
On some e-bay photos lower wing surfaces of I-15bis look silver:
on others they don't - but that doesn’t mean they were blue either
Fabric fragment preserved in Finnish museum also shows silver-gray, NOT blue:
Still undersides of most I-15bis models are painted in blue:
Both models are masterpieces, I wish both authors success, but IMHO, silver undersides would be more historically correct.
Скажу что знаю, на Халхин Голе бисы и чайки были только с серебряным низом. Ишаки с серым, СБ с серым, Р-5, У-2, ТБ-3 с сероголубым (или зеленоголубым, кто как видит), DC-3 серебристым. Как таковой голубой краски АII на нижних поверхностях не было вообще.
but IMHO, silver undersides would be more historically correct.
Совершенно с вами согласен! Если бы речь шла о самолете на 1939 г. Но я построил модель на осень 1941 г.
19 июня 1941 выходит постановление правительства о введении новых стандартов камуфляжной окраски.
I absolutely agree with you! If we speak about the plane in 1939. But I have constructed model for time autumn 1941
On June, 19th 1941 governmental order about introduction of new standards of camouflage colouring has appeared.
"Ошибочность применения серебристой окраски самолетов впервые была выявлена на Халхин-Голе. Окрашенные таким способом самолеты были видны на земле с воздуха на большом удалении. Самолеты, участвовавшие в боях, в полевых условиях срочно окрашивали в защитные цвета силами технического состава на свой вкус."
Михаил Маслов.
Оправданием мне также может служить воспоминания Белина Сергея Матвеевича, он служил инженером в ПАРМе одной из воздушных армий с 1942 по 1945 год
Он рассказывал, что стандарт при покраске строго соблюдался. Камуфляж наносили по шаблонам, а не как бог на душу положит. Более того, часто приходилось доводить самолеты выпущенные на заводах сразу после их получения боевым полком. А уж в ПАРМах и подавно перекрашивали самолет под последний введенный стандарт.
As the justification to me also can serve memoirs by Belin Sergey Matveevich, it served as the engineer in ПАРМ (1942-1945) to one of air armies.
He told that the standard at painting was strictly observed. Camouflage put strictly on templates. Moreover, often it was necessary to lead up planes let out on factories right after their receptions by a fighting regiment. And so much the more recoloured the plane under last entered standard in ПАРМ.
Я думаю, в 1941 голубой цвет вполне вероятен.
И еще, это моя первая модель и я не умею реалистично окрашивать в серебристый....
ИМХО этот цвет очень труден для реалистичного воспроизведения.
I think In 1941 blue colour it is quite probable.
And still, it is my first model and I am not able is realistic to paint in the silvery....
IMHO This colour is very difficult for realistic reproduction
Добавлено спустя 8 минут 25 секунд:
KL писал(а):
At the end of production in 1939, entire planes were painted silver
И-15 бис воевали довольно долгое время после окончания их серийного выпуска,
например:
25 ОАЭ
Имела на вооружении истребители И-15бис, которых на 1 июля 1941 года имелось восемь штук. Эскадрилья базировалась на аэродроме в Бернгардовке. Задачей эскадрильи была ночная работа по путям сообщения, прожекторам, и зенитным установкам противника.
На рубеже 1942-43 годов эскадрилья активно участвует в контрбатарейной борьбе.
Во второй половине 1943 года И-15бис совместно со штурмовиками Ил-2 7-го гв. шап применялись для контрбатарейной борьбы. Причем «Бисы» вели работу в ночное время, в Илы – днем. В сентябре 1943 года И-15бис провели несколько удачных штурмовок железнодорожных составов, при помощи РС-82. В одном из вылетов пара «Бисов» сожгла приземлившийся на специальной площадке немецкий корректировщик Hs126.
Мироненко. Первым применил смелый способ уничтожения прожекторов, пикируя на него прямо по лучу, и закоптив стекла очков сажей. Впоследствии ГСС.
За такой долгий срок службы они не раз перекрашивались по новым стандартам.
Я думаю, в 1941 голубой цвет вполне вероятен.
И еще, это моя первая модель и я не умею реалистично окрашивать в серебристый....
ИМХО этот цвет очень труден для реалистичного воспроизведения.
Zamechatelyna model - it looks too good for a first model.
Blue undersides are definitely possible for planes overhauled after mid 1940. Later during the war I-15bis were camouflaged in black-green-blue scheme too.
Also useful for dating camouflage scheme are the red stars - their style and location:
1938 – 1939 (factory scheme) = Stars with black outline and inscribed black circle. Stars on wing tops, no stars on tailfin.
Mid 1940 – mid 1941 = Stars with black outline only. Stars on wing tops, no stars on tailfin.
Mid 1941 – mid 1943 = Stars without border. Stars on tailfin, no stars on wing tops.
Mid 1940 – mid 1941 scheme would include AII Z for upper surfaces and AII Gol for undersides –colours that you have used.
But, Your model shows stars typical for the factory scheme, so silver would be more appropriate….
People would say that I am closing the barn door and the horses are already out, i.e. too late. How about a suggestion for your next project: Halkin-Gol I-15bis with silver undersides?? Or, an overall silver bis like this one:
Zamechatelyna model - it looks too good for a first model.
Thank you very much!
KL писал(а):
But, Your model shows stars typical for the factory scheme, so silver would be more appropriate….
KL писал(а):
Mid 1940 – mid 1941 scheme would include AII Z for upper surfaces and AII Gol for undersides –colours that you have used.
But, Your model shows stars typical for the factory scheme, so silver would be more appropriate….
I quite agree with you. The probability of existence of a combination stars typical for the factory scheme with AIIG for undersides is the small. But there are no reasons to deny possibility of the same completely.
We see stars with black outline and inscribed black circle on the photo of 1941 often enough.
For example, here a photoы of plane:
Unfortunately, these pictures quality does not allow to do the conclusion about colour for undersides. IMHO colour of undersides can be identified as blue. The undersides could be recoloured in the AIIG.
KL писал(а):
People would say that I am closing the barn door and the horses are already out, i.e. too late.
It seems to me, in the war beginning silvery looked improbably. And I wished to make the plane on the Great Patriotic War beginning (1941) exactly.
In the summer of 1941 the victory in air fight on И-15бис, got very hardly and was appreciated especially highly. But even battling on the out-of-date technics, the Soviet pilots showed courage and self-sacrifice miracles, having put Ljuftvaffe irreplaceable losses.
I have chosen Stars with black outline and inscribed black circle to pay attention to the out-of-date technics.
Massimo's opinion about I-15bis undersides color: they were painted same as I-153 - silver AII Aluminium was used for fabric covered surfaces and AE-9 light gray for metal parts .
Massimo's opinion is based on photographic evidence; is there any other info to support this theory?
What color were undersurfaces of I-16s made between 1938 and 1940???
Massimo's opinion about I-15bis undersides color: they were painted same as I-153 - silver AII Aluminium was used for fabric covered surfaces and AE-9 light gray for metal parts .
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Hello,
for me there is no reason to use AE9 in combination with AII al. AE8 is shown in the Albom so it was produced until 1946 ( M. Orlov wrote until the 50èr).
@ GONZA,
Anatoli, your model is a very great work! Respect for this first model!
Here in Germany we would say " Das ist der Hammer!"
Greetings
Ron
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